October 14, 2021

Macronutrients – What They Are and How to Calculate Them

Show Notes

On this episode, Chuck Gaidica is joined by Shanthi Appelö, registered dietitian for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. Together, they explore what are macronutrients and how to calculate them.

In this episode of A Healthier Michigan Podcast, we explore:

  • What are the three main components that make up macronutrients.
  • Ways to simplify counting macronutrients
  • Pitfalls to avoid when tracking macros

Transcript

Chuck Gaidica:
This is A Healthier Michigan Podcast, episode 91. Coming up, we discuss what macros are, how to count them, and why they’re important to track when pursuing your health goals. Welcome to A Healthier Michigan podcast, a podcast dedicated to navigating how we can improve our health and wellbeing through small, healthy habits we can start implementing right now. I’m your host, Chuck Gaidica, and every other week, we sit down with a certified expert to discuss topics that cover nutrition, fitness, a whole lot more. On this episode, we are talking about all things macronutrients. What are they? Yeah, that’s one of my questions too. We’re going to explore this, what and how we should use them, and why as we try to work our way through lifestyle changes and what used to be called diets, remember back in the old days. With me today is registered dietitian for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, Shanthi Appelö. Hello Shanthi.

Shanthi Appelö:
Hello. Oh my gosh. I can’t believe this episode 91.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
How is that possible?

Chuck Gaidica:
Do I look older?

Shanthi Appelö:
Well, I can’t see you, but you sound just as youthful.

Chuck Gaidica:
Well, that’s good. That’s good. Well, we’re glad you’re back with us and you’ve got so much experience here. I know you’re passionate about nutrition and science and behavior, and you’ve taught at a university. While we may view this as a conversation about macronutrients, I know you’re going to instruct us. Let’s jump into it. When we hear this word macros or macronutrients, what are they and why are they important for us to maintain good health?

Shanthi Appelö:
I think that’s such an important question because really it’s the very basics of nutrition, macronutrients. Think carbs, fat, and protein.

Chuck Gaidica:
Okay.

Shanthi Appelö:
All right. They all provide calories in a way. Essentially whenever you’re tracking macros, these all have calories so by tracking them, you’re also tracking calories. Just keep that in mind as we move along. But carbohydrates, they have four calories per gram, and this is important because protein also has four calories per gram, but fat actually has nine calories per gram. There’s a different kind of value of calories that they provide when you look at it down to the gram.

Shanthi Appelö:
Now carbs, whenever we eat them and we break them down, it’s your body’s major source of energy. It’s going to fuel our daily activities. What we really want to see here, is between 45 to 65% of our total calories coming from carbs. They’re used even when we break them down, and the excess is stored in the liver and muscles, it’s called glycogen. There’s that as well. Protein, they’re the ones that we think as building blocks, the growth and repair of our tissues, our muscles, everything like that. They also make the essential hormones in our body and enzymes that break down food and they support our immune function. It’s also a source of energy. Then finally fat, it supplies those fatty acids that we need because we can’t make all of the fatty acids that our body needs, think Omega-3. It also helps absorb these fat-soluble vitamins. Think vitamins A, D, E, and K. All those are kind of the breakdown of what macros are and why we need them for just simply everyday life.

Chuck Gaidica:
It sounds like a lot of math, but I’ve got an app on my phone that actually tracks calories. I input data or I scan a QR code or label. I’ll see these macronutrients, but I’m still a little fuzzy on what I’m trying to balance and how. It’s because of all the inputs from the world, “Go low carb, that’s good. Go high carb, vegan, that’s good. Go this way, that’s good.” I know that you’re going to talk to me about balance and you’ve given us those average percentages, but it still seems like for some people, tweaking one way or another is helpful, or am I wrong?

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah. There are these three different types of macronutrients, right, and we want to have them in different percentages. Really what we need, is going to be dependent on things like just your age, your weight, your height, your physical activity level. Where it really starts, is calculating that daily energy expenditure. That means it’s the calories that you burn in a day, and it also takes into account what you’re burning at rest. Say you were sleeping for an entire day, what would you burn? You didn’t do a single thing. You didn’t eat, you didn’t move, right? It takes into account all of those. That’s where we start. The best equation out there is going to be the Mifflin St. Jeor formula. You can find this-

Chuck Gaidica:
Oh that one, yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
… That one. It’s a bit like-

Chuck Gaidica:
Oh yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
… You know that guy.

Chuck Gaidica:
Oh yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
Mifflin St. Jeor, the equation is going to be the best one. The reason for that, is it takes into account your activity level, your age, your height, your weight, and all those kinds of things. You can find them online. There are a lot of apps that use this very equation to calculate. If you’re a man or a woman, you’re going to have a different equation for this. You’re going to start by calculating that, and then you move into your activity level. The first kind of equation just is based on how much energy you’re expending in general, and then we multiply it by this factor. If you’re sedentary, it’s going to be lower than if you’re very active. That’s where that kind of comes into play. The USDA also has a really great calculator that tells you kind of how many calories you need to eat. Those two resources I really recommend. All right. You’re with me, we’re calculating what we burn in a total day, right?

Chuck Gaidica:
Right.

Shanthi Appelö:
Okay. Then, we need to think about these macronutrient distribution ranges, okay? I mentioned carbohydrates, 45 to 65% of your total calories. Then we have protein, which needs to be between 10 and 35% of our total calories. Then our fat needs to be between 20 to 35% of our total calories. These ranges are really broad, right?

Chuck Gaidica:
Well, they are, but you know, again, there are a lot of apps that kind of do this for you, right? You don’t have to get out the pencil and start ciphering if you don’t want to. I mean, if you’re kind of wonky and you want to get into the whole thing, you can, but I suspect there are all kinds of things to help you along the way, right?

Shanthi Appelö:
Yes,

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
Definitely. I definitely encourage taking those apps into consideration because it is a lot of math, but it-

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
… can be really helpful just to know where these numbers are coming from. How did this app figure out that I need this many calories from carbs? A lot of those apps, you can set goals for yourself. I like to recommend that you kind of start with a micronutrient distribution for some of these, and then you can kind of shift based on what works for you. The best distribution range is going to be one that you can actually follow, like any other diet.

Chuck Gaidica:
Oh, there’s this Dunder Mifflin thing. Oh no wait, that’s the name of the company on The Office? I’m sorry. What is it? The Mifflin what? What is it called again?

Shanthi Appelö:
The Mifflin St. Jeor, but I like Dunder Mifflin.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah, I like it too. All right. We’ve got the Mifflin thing and we’re going to start there. Let me go back to old days, like last week. I’ve got a wife who literally honest to goodness, could eat half a birthday cake and then she says tomorrow, “Oh, I lost a pound.” Drives me nutty. She would say in her lifestyle, she just counts calories. If she goes over, she’s over and she knows she has to cut back. If she’s under, she’s under. I guarantee you, she doesn’t pay attention to macronutrients. Is that just because of her makeup that that works out best for her, or is it that the rest of us are just a little… We’re all so different that sometimes we need this other system? Because for her, honest to goodness, it works.

Shanthi Appelö:
Well when it really comes down to it, calories do matter. We get weight loss when we burn more calories than we consume. The difference with macronutrients, is going to be that you’re getting sufficient energy from your carbohydrates, for example. It’s set up to where you’re not going to get tired, you’re not going to get drowsy. It’s going to have enough protein, if you choose the right range for you, to where you’re not going to go hungry and overeat later. There’s kind of more of a guide to kind of making it easier in a way to eat-

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
… rather than just calories. It’s really up to whatever works for whoever, but calories in the end do matter. That’s really where we start with these macronutrient ranges, is with calories. For example, if someone’s TDEE, which is that total number of calories that you burn in a day, is 2000. 2000 is an easy number so I’m just going to start there.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
If that person wants to lose weight, then we need to subtract calories from that to be in a calorie deficit to eventually lose weight. That means subtracting maybe 500 calories or so, and then going from there with your range. It’s not that calories don’t matter at all. If we eat an excess number of calories, we will gain weight.

Chuck Gaidica:
Here’s the thing that I think, and I will just speak for myself, right? I could involve other people, but I won’t even defer. If I were to cut back 500 calories a day, I would still be looking at a banana and thinking, “That’s going to have so many carbs and so much sugar.” I had one this morning with my yogurt, so it’s not like I don’t eat them. If I were to go by the percentages that you’re suggesting, in my brain anyway, and I’m not a low carb guy, I still think, “Well, maybe I’m getting too many carbs. Maybe that’s my thing.” You’re saying literally, if I stick to these percentages of macros, that’s cool. I really should be looking for balance under the umbrella of total calories and I’ll feel good. I won’t feel lightheaded or fuzzy, right? That’s the intent, is to keep it balanced.

Shanthi Appelö:
That is the intent. I think there are definitely ways that you can shift it around to feel more satiety, feel less crummy towards the end of the day. But yeah, the idea is here that if you’re getting this percentage of carbohydrates from your diet or in your calories, then you are going to have enough energy not to feel crummy later.

Shanthi Appelö:
An example of this, what you were saying is if something, for example, has the exact same calories, let’s say two, Pop-Tarts. I just happened to know that those are 370 calories. That’s a serving of Pop-Tarts, okay? Then we compare it to something with the exact same number of calories, so four ounces of grilled chicken with a cup of brown rice and a serving of veggies. Obviously that grilled chicken with the rice in the serving of veggies, is going to be much more fulfilling because it does have that protein. It’s going to satisfy you, could keep you fuller for longer. It’s also going to have carbohydrates to keep you going. It just so happens that the carbohydrates in the brown rice are going to be more wholesome. They’re going to have more fiber and keep you boosted for longer, something that macronutrients doesn’t take into account, but we can go into more about kind of the pitfalls in a moment.

Shanthi Appelö:
Really the macros here, when we’re comparing the Pop-Tarts to the grilled chicken with rice, it makes that distinction of getting different types of macronutrients that do different things for our body and make us feel more satisfied.

Chuck Gaidica:
If we come back to the individual again, before we get to total pitfalls, I know people who have gone low carb and honest to goodness, if they exceeded 20 grams of carbohydrate in their day, they’re running for the doors like, “I’ve got to stop.” There are some people who can do that and lower their carbs, if that’s what system works for them, and they don’t seem to get fuzzy and they don’t seem to run out of energy. Is it just, I’m watching from afar and I don’t really know what’s happening, or to your point, can people tinker with those ranges and find the happy place for them and that’s okay?

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah. Carbs is such a complicated subject here because there are so many facets to this.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
In anything that’s extremely low carb, and let me just say, carbohydrates is the only macronutrient we could technically live without consuming, okay? You would die if you didn’t eat protein. You would die if you didn’t eat fat. But if you did not eat carbohydrates, you would survive because we have this process called gluconeogenesis, where we can generate carbohydrates in our body from other sources. This is not the preferred way whatsoever, okay? Not preferred. Our body prefers carbohydrates to be fueled off of. It makes our brain think better and stuff like that. What studies have looked at, is that when people have this low carbohydrate intake over time, they are able to adjust to that. In the beginning, they’re in this brain fog and things like that. But, what we’ve also seen, as we’ve talked about many times before, is that it’s really difficult to stick to that low level of carbohydrate intake like you were saying, 20 grams or something like that. That’s extremely low. You can barely eat fruit on that. You couldn’t eat fruit on that.

Chuck Gaidica:
I think you couldn’t even eat an apple. Am I wrong? Wouldn’t an apple puts you over for the day, sort of?

Shanthi Appelö:
It’s very close.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
That’s not the ideal situation, right?

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
But for people who tend to be more reactive to carbs, the lower range of that can be really helpful. For example, if we’re counting macros and someone has type two diabetes, for example, it might be helpful for them to be on the lower range of the carbohydrates, but then have a little higher fat instead. They’re still getting the sufficient calories that they need, but it’s a little lower on the carbs because it helps them stabilize their blood sugar. There’s that.

Shanthi Appelö:
Another thing is you mentioned that the carbohydrate conversation, is that one of the things that makes low carbohydrate diets so successful is that you lose a lot of water weight in the beginning. I think there’s just so much to it is that, when you cut out carbohydrates, you are going to be consuming more calories from other sources. But when you decrease your caloric intake from carbs, which is like rice and your pasta, really starchy vegetables and things like that, you naturally decrease your calories overall, which results in weight loss as well. Like I said, there’s just so many facets to that. I think for this conversation, just focusing on the flexibility that people have with macronutrient counting. It’s actually called flexible dieting in a lot of ways, because it allows them to kind of fit in some of their favorite foods so that it’s more easy to follow, and you might still be having that kind of lower end of that carbohydrate range.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. What do you see as some of the pitfalls, you mentioned this, when you’re tracking your macros?

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah. When it comes to tracking in general, whether it’s just counting your calories, it can be pretty disruptive and it can even be triggering for people who have had eating disorders, think anorexia, bulimia. Just restricting their food intake in general, just having disordered eating, tracking it can trigger. It can worsen disordered eating symptoms. There’s that, because there are those really specific numbers that you want to hit. Say you calculate that you have to have 160 grams of carbohydrates in a day. You’re at the end of the day, really obsessive compulsive about reaching that number, right? That’s not good for people who have a history of disordered eating. That doesn’t mean it’s not good for everyone or no one, it just means that we have to consider the individual in this too.

Shanthi Appelö:
A couple of other things that you might want to think about, is that with macro counting, it doesn’t take into consideration the quality of the food, as much as it does the macronutrients. Someone who is following a macro lifestyle, might need to just pay attention that they’re getting the five fruits and vegetables a day, that they’re making sure that they are getting fiber in their carbohydrate intake, and that they’re getting the vitamins and minerals, phytochemicals, antioxidants, and all those really important nutrients in our health as well.

Chuck Gaidica:
And can’t we be helped? Let me look at mine right now. I’m going to pull up my app on my phone.

Shanthi Appelö:
Do it.

Chuck Gaidica:
I haven’t input any food today, but if I were to, I would see fat and then saturated fat, carbohydrates and protein. This app will also tell me sugars, fiber, sodium, and cholesterol. In a glance, I’m getting what, maybe 10 line items. It does then assign the percentages for the day as I track my food. What I like about this app is that when I’m tracking, I’m getting these three big ones you’re talking about, fat, carbohydrates, and protein, but at a glance, I’m seeing my sodium content and I’m also seeing fiber, right? I’m seeing some of this other stuff that may matter for some people. I like that idea because that’s helpful to me.

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah, definitely. That’s where choosing the right app for you comes in. That means if you’re searching for an app, you want to make sure that it not only has those additional qualities like you were saying, it counts your fiber, it looks at sugar, it looks at some vitamins, but we also want to make sure that it has a big enough library of the types of food that when you’re going out to eat, it’ll have something similar to what you’re looking for, right? I think there’s a lot of exploring you can do with these different apps, to see what’s right for you.

Chuck Gaidica:
Let’s go back to the beginning of our conversation here. We want to do it. We now find value in tracking our macros. What is the way to kind of walk into the shallow end of the pool, and not maybe jump right into the deep end with all of it? What are your suggestions of how do we literally get started, so we can start to feel comfortable calculating the macros?

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah. The first thing obviously is going to be working either with an app or a calculation, or even with a dietitian, on figuring out the number of calories that you need, and then figuring out those ranges. I do recommend having a range. I dated a guy once back in college and I remember he was counting macros. At the end of the day, he would sit and he would have a scale in front of him, and he would weigh out Cheerios-

Chuck Gaidica:
Come on.

Shanthi Appelö:
… to make sure that he met the exact gram of carbohydrates.

Chuck Gaidica:
Wow.

Shanthi Appelö:
He would figure out these foods that had only carbohydrates or whatever. We don’t need to be that way, right? Nothing against him, but we don’t need to be that specific and a range works just fine. If you wanted to base it off of a percentage, say your carbohydrate intake is about 50% of your calories. Now, you might say… Let’s just say that was 225 grams exactly. You might give yourself a range to do 200 to 250 grams per day of carbohydrates so that you’re not locked into this exact number, and just knowing that it’s okay not to be precise in some of these things. I think that’s how you make it in the long run, if you’re interested in this style of eating.

Chuck Gaidica:
I’m assuming you don’t count your Cheerios, am I right?

Shanthi Appelö:
I do not count my Cheerios. In fact, I personally do not count macros. I think it’s interesting to learn about, and I think it is excellent for those people that it really works for. It’s just up to what works for your lifestyle, right? It can be quite involved and some people are looking for that.

Chuck Gaidica:
Well, I’ll tell you another benefit for me and I’ve mentioned this in one of our podcasts. I don’t think it was when you and I were together. While I tracked my wife at the beginning, who again, could lose weight if she just breathes, looked at me one day, I was in a restaurant and I was inputting food. I’m guessing about… I just pulled up salmon and I put that in, and broccoli and I put that in. She said, “Why do you input all your foods?” I explained it to her and she thought it was kind of wonky.

Chuck Gaidica:
Well you know what happened, is I wound up influencing her. I didn’t even know it. One day I noticed she’s got her phone and she’s tracking her food, and I laughed. I said, “What are you doing?” She said, “Well, you started it and I’m just doing it.” And she said, “You know what? I really like it. I can now see my sodium and how much fat I’ve got.” I thought, “Wow, I never thought I would be able to be an influencer,” but it actually felt pretty good. I thought, “Well, okay, awesome,” because, I want my wife to live a long life like I do.

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah.

Chuck Gaidica:
Beautiful.

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah. What you’re mentioning here, is that accountability and the awareness, right?

Chuck Gaidica:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Shanthi Appelö:
That’s what comes with tracking macros, tracking calories, and-

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
… tracking your intake in general. It just makes you more aware of what you’re putting into your body, good or bad, and lets you know what you can focus on.

Chuck Gaidica:
When you look at various foods, obviously this is your profession, but for the rest of us mere mortals, is there an easy way to figure out what foods you should be eating that meet your macros? Is it really looking at that piece of chicken with rice, with broccoli, or is there some other trick that we get ourselves accustomed to, to kind of see the food and the know we’re on the right track?

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah. Well, if you want to be a food detective, it definitely takes some time kind of tracking your foods and noticing what kind of macros they had. But as a general rule of thumb, those that are going to be rich in carbs, are going to be anything that’s based with a grain, okay? Think your pasta, rice, bread, anything made with flour is grain-based, and then your starchy vegetables like flour, potatoes, peas, and of course your sugary items as well. Those are going to be carbohydrates. Protein is going to come from meat, fish, and poultry. In red meats, you’re going to see a fat component there as well, but you’re not going to see any carbs. Some poultry, especially some cuts of it, are going to have some fat as well. Then you think of beans, it’s going to have both carbs and protein.

Shanthi Appelö:
There are a few rules of thumb that you can think about, but just be aware that it has other components to it as well. Then fat foods are going to be based in oils, nuts, fatty meats, things like that. Whenever we’re piecing together a meal, it’s just making sure that we have a balance of all of these and tracking accordingly really. Making sure that you have something from each group can make it easier. Putting together half your plate of vegetables, but then making sure that there’s some starchy vegetables in there for your carbs, or if you’re including your protein, maybe beans will provide carbs and protein there. Then making sure that your fats are in there, your healthy fats, think olive oil as you’re cooking your chicken or you’re making a dressing for a salad. I think there are a lot of easy ways to really incorporate them all, but it’s just a different way of thinking.

Chuck Gaidica:
The other thing that I’ve noticed for myself, is that you’ve got to recalibrate your expectations. For instance, on the days where I may have, and you mentioned beans. If I have black beans, hummus, it’s more veggie based meal. I’m getting protein for sure, but I’m also seeing higher fiber and I’m also seeing higher carbohydrates, which kind of throws my brain off because I’m thinking, “Oh, I was going for protein, but yet I’m seeing the carbs tick up because it really is chickpeas making the hummus and black beans.” It’s helped me recalibrate the healthfulness of eating something and still understanding I’m getting a little bit of everything at one time. Then there’s no meat, I guess that’s my point. My brain tells me as a guy, there should be a piece of meat there. Well no, the numbers all worked out fine.

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah, well our society has really been built that way. In especially the last 10 years, we’ve been kind of pushed to think, “Okay, carbs are bad so I’m trying to eat less of that. I know I need to have protein and that can only come from the main component of the meal, which is a chicken or meat or something like that.” It definitely breaks away from that type of thinking, thinking that carbs are evil and things like that. Yeah, it definitely takes some recalibrating as you said, of just being comfortable with getting carbs from different sources, and maybe not getting the level of protein that you’re used to in some meals.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. Anything else you want to share with us about hacks or tricks of the trade or ways to figure out what kind of foods we should be eating that satisfy us with our macros? Anything else?

Shanthi Appelö:
Well, when you’re figuring out your ratios, I think a really good place to start is protein, because there’s kind of a recommended protein amount for your body weight. Depending on your goals, your protein is going to be a little different. Protein is going to increase your fullness and your satiety, right? Some researchers say that about 30% of calories seems to be good for weight loss, for protein intake. That’s something good to consider.

Shanthi Appelö:
But for athletes, it can be really good to make a calculation based on your body weight. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics and American College of Sports Medicine, they recommend somewhere between 1.2 to two grams of protein per kilogram of your body weight. It’s not per pound. The first thing we just do with our body weight is, for example, if you weigh 200 pounds, divide it 2.2, then you’re going to multiply it by somewhere in this range. If someone, for example, is an endurance athlete, they would multiply it by a factor between 1.2 to 1.4. That’s how much protein they need. For those that are strength and power athletes, they need between 1.2 to 1.7. You see that people who strength train a little bit more, are going to have a little bit higher protein needs. The generally healthy population, the minimum is 0.8 grams per kilogram of your body weight. There’s really a huge range there.

Chuck Gaidica:
When you use kilogram, how does that equate to a pound again?

Shanthi Appelö:
You divide the number of pounds that you are, divided by 2.2.

Chuck Gaidica:
Oh, got you. Okay.

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah, it’s a good place to start because we do have some protein recommendations that cater to our body weight. It’s just a good way to consider that first. You can play around with it too, if you’re considering those macros.

Chuck Gaidica:
Well, I’m going to start playing around with it. I got my Cheerios. One for you, two for me, one for you, two for me. Oh, I’m sorry. I was going to share, but they are kind of honey coated. One for you, two for me. There is some math here, but I just want to encourage everybody if you step into the shallow end with an app and you start to see these numbers and you’ve tracked your food, that’s the key. If you’re inputting your food and you start to see these magic little categories illuminate with the numbers you’re looking for, it really gets to be easier to see how the macros are affecting your day. If you want to tweak them or you’re saying, “Oh my gosh, my carbs are off the charts because I ate six bananas today.” Well, you can start to tweak that.

Chuck Gaidica:
I’m not an expert at this, trust me. I mean, if somebody is going to do this math by hand, I want them to do my taxes. This is not my thing, but I really have enjoyed having an app. That’s the point. It’s really helped me understand everything you’re talking about.

Shanthi Appelö:
Yeah, no, I completely agree. The apps are going to simplify the process, but it’s just nice to know what the math behind it is sometimes, right?

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah.

Shanthi Appelö:
Even if you don’t have to actually sit there and calculate it.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. Okay. Well, you enjoy your day. Wait, one more for you, two for me, one for you and two for me. Shanthi Appelö joining us today. She’s a registered dietitian with Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. So good to have you aboard again today, Shanthi. Thank you.

Shanthi Appelö:
Thanks Chuck. I’ll see you later.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah, take good care. Thank you for listening to A Healthier Michigan Podcast. It’s brought to you by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. If you want to know more about the show, you can check us out always. We’re 91 episodes now, right? We’ve got a lot of great stuff in the rear view mirror for you. Go to ahealthiermichigan.org/podcast. You can leave us reviews or ratings on Apple Podcast or Stitcher, and you can always get new episodes on your smartphone or tablet. Be sure to subscribe to us on Apple Podcast or Spotify or your favorite podcast app. Take good care.