March 18, 2021

Is Blue Light Bad for Our Eyes?

Show Notes

On this episode, Chuck Gaidica is joined by Dr. Paul Kimbro, director of clinical services for Henry Ford OptimEyes. Together, they discuss the effects of blue light on our eyesight.

In this episode of A Healthier Michigan Podcast, we explore:

  • What is blue light.
  • If it is harmful to our eyes.
  • How it can affect your overall health.
  • If blue light glasses actually work.
  • Tips to help keep your eyes healthy.

Transcript

Chuck Gaidica:
This is A Healthier Michigan Podcast, episode 76. Coming up, we discuss the impact blue light has on our eyes.

Chuck Gaidica:
Welcome to A Healthier Michigan Podcast. This is a podcast dedicated to navigating how we can improve our health and well-being through small, healthy habits we can start implementing right now. I’m your host, Chuck Gaidica. Every other week, we’ll sit down with a certified expert to discuss topics covering nutrition, fitness, and a whole lot more, and today is a lot more. We’re diving in deep on the effects of blue light on our eyesight.

Chuck Gaidica:
With me today is the director of clinical services for Henry Ford OptimEyes, Dr. Paul Kimbro. How are you?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
I’m doing well.

Chuck Gaidica:
Well, good. It’s good to have you with us. This has got to be a big topic. And I know you’ve got a lot of experience seeing so many people from your practice in Grand Rapids and Lansing. You grew up where, Muskegon, right?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Correct. Yeah, on the west side.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. And then wound up going to Ferris State and then along the way, wound up at Michigan College of Optometry. So here you are now to be our expert this morning to discuss something that many of us have been thrown into without wanting to be for the past year, which is get on a device and work from home.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah, exactly. I think this year has really exposed how much dependency we have on these devices. They’re so integral to our work lives and our social lives now.

Chuck Gaidica:
And even before the pandemic and continuing right through it to this minute, we are waking up, it could be the very first thing you grab on average, your phone, or maybe your iPad or some device. I’ve read we’re picking these things up 58 times a day. So the number of minutes and hours collectively that we are spending on devices that emit blue light, it has got to be astounding to you.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
It is. And you’re correct to say that it’s something that’s top on our patients’ mind and concerns. They’re concerned about themselves with their work. They’re concerned about their students going to school. So it’s a topic that’s hot right now, and we’re seeing lots of it.

Chuck Gaidica:
So help us. Let’s start from the very beginning. What is blue light and where is it being emitted? Is it just what we assume the devices are? So give us some help there.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
So I think it’s a good place to start as a grounding in just what is blue light, as you mentioned. And one way to think about this is the electromagnetic spectrum. And what that means is we have short and long wavelengths on a continuum. And at the short end, we have things like x-rays, UV light, on the long end, radar, your FM and AM radio. And blue light’s part of the visible spectrum, the light that we can actually see, situated right in the middle with wavelengths of light from roughly 380 nanometers all the way up to 700.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
And we probably learn about this most in science class. We learned the acronym, ROYGBIV, and that’s from long to short wavelength, Roy, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet. And so with that understanding, blue lights really become a focus when we’re discussing eye health. Because as you mentioned, 90% of families have at least one computer, smartphone, or tablet. The median family has many, many more than that. And blue light’s contributing about a third of the emission spectrum from your typical iPhone. So blue light’s everywhere. It’s in our phones, it’s in our tablets, it’s in our fluorescent light bulbs, and maybe most importantly, it’s in the sun. That’s the biggest emitter of blue light that we encounter daily, but 2020 has really refocused the conversation on our screens.

Chuck Gaidica:
And so with all this blue light that we’re getting, obviously 25 years ago, 20 years ago, we didn’t have all this exposure. And maybe it’s just a year ago, right, in the old days, a year ago. But why is there so much focus on it now? Is it purely because we’ve got more devices, or is it just a thing we’re discovering can be potentially a hazard?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah. I think the research has grown on this topic as we’ve become more focused on our screens and to your point over the last five, even 10 years. So the research has just really picked up about what are the effects cumulatively on the high amount of blue light coming from screens.

Chuck Gaidica:
So is blue light harmful to our eyes? And if so, why?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
The short answer is it’s probably too early to know for certain. Most of the studies that suggest blue light damages the retina in the back of the eye have been completed in Petri dishes or in rats. And so we know that those blue light levels were really high and they exceed the amount we’re exposed to in our daily lives from screens, but there are some researchers pointing to sort of the unknown effects of this cumulative exposure.

Chuck Gaidica:
Those poor rats, they have to put up with a lot, don’t they? They’re always getting experimented on.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah. Yep, they’re saving us, one rat at a time though.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. Right, right. So is there a link then that you are seeing, even if we wouldn’t call it extreme harm, because some of these studies as you mentioned are really just studies or they’re papers, abstracts, but is there something that you can point to that is saying you’re seeing it in your practice, people coming in, that you could say, “Well, if there’s a lot of exposure, that’s all they do is work in front of a computer all day. Therefore, something…” What is that something you’re seeing?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
I think we have to sort of disentangle blue light as being the culprit for digital eyestrain. So I think that’s the biggest thing. It comes down to really how we’re using these devices. So all these symptoms that patients come in with of digital eye strain, dryness, burning, tearing, blurred vision, headaches, these are the common sense symptoms that alert us, hey, maybe I should step away from my computer for awhile or set down Netflix, step away after a few hours. But I don’t think we can pin it strictly on blue light. I think we have to attribute it to the time we’re spending on devices, how little we’re blinking when we’re focused on these devices. So those sorts of things are probably more important.

Chuck Gaidica:
And so are you seeing issues manifest then based on not just screen time, but do things that we have some control over outside of obviously turning off a device and turning off our eyes and walking away, like should we be adjusting font size? Should we be adjusting the light, whether it’s a brighter or darker screen on our laptop? Are there things we should be practicing that could be helpful?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah. I think you hit on it perfectly there. One of the things that we talk about is visual hygiene. And what that means is being mindful or conscientious about how much we’re blinking using maybe lubrication, artificial tears if you’re going to spend hours and hours on a screen to just re-wet the front surface of the eye. Adjusting your screen, screens should really be set to somewhere between 22 and 25 inches. And when you’re looking at them, you should be looking slightly downward. That’s what we’ve discovered is the best posture to be looking at these devices.

Chuck Gaidica:
And you know what you just said is maybe counter to what everybody has been trying to practice over a year. So whether you’ve got a built-in camera or you’ve hooked up a USB camera for your Zoom meetings to stay at work from home, you don’t necessarily want your computer down low pointing up. You want it sort of eye level you assume because you want to have a conversation with people. So that’s a little different than what we’ve become maybe accustomed to in this year.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah. I think that’s exactly right. To get the camera in line, you’re trying to be front and center so you can get a good shot for all those Zoom meetings. But when you’re going to sit down and hammer out emails or work on Excel spreadsheets or students are spending hours in front of their screen for virtual learning, it does become important that we create enough of a distance between our eyes and the screen that we have a slightly downward gaze. And one of the most important things we can practice is something we call the 20-20-20 rule, which sounds sort of silly. It’s obviously optometry created. It stems from 20/20 vision. But what it means is every 20 minutes, we should be trying to look 20 feet away for about 20 seconds. And what that does is allows the focusing system in the eye to sort of reset, allows the tear film to re-normalize, blink rate to re-establish itself, and then we can go back to what we’re doing. And at the end of the day, if we’re able to do that, we’ll probably come away with a lot fewer of these digital eyestrain symptoms.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. That’s a great way to think about that. And that can be combined with, it’s hard in a Zoom call, but most of those aren’t going forever, but maybe combining that with standing up, walking, some deep breathing for mindfulness. If you just combine that with other stuff in that time period that you looked away after 20 minutes and you get up and go for a walk just to get the blood pumping, it may be the best way to give yourself overall health.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. It ties into our systemic health. And one of the things that I think we should probably get accustomed to in this new world of Zoom meetings and virtual Teams meetings is that it’s okay every now and then to maybe turn your screen off. Your face doesn’t have to be right there looking at your colleagues and supervisors every minute of that call. It’s okay for 30 seconds to step away and then come back to that screen.

Chuck Gaidica:
You got to be fair. I think I look better with that still photo that pops up when I turn off my video. So yeah.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
I think you’re in good company there.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah, my hair looks better because of the time of day, right?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Exactly.

Chuck Gaidica:
So we’re learning from you that it’s not all about blue light, but are you seeing any direct correlations then to screen time itself with nearsightedness or farsightedness? Is there a correlation?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah, so I think this is and area where there’s a growing body of evidence supporting the claim that near work, and I want to be specific there, not just screen time, but sustained near work, which would include just your old fashioned book, is associated with myopia or what we call near-sightedness, the inability to see far away. And the World Health Organization projects that by 2050, 52% of the world’s population will be myopic, which is just staggering to think about that many people who are going to be near-sighted. And so myopia development are garnering a lot of attention right now, but we still think it’s a result of a complex interaction between genetics and environment. That being said, most of us, most eyecare providers, are advocating for less screen time, more physical activity outside, and I think the evidence is growing to back up that recommendation.

Chuck Gaidica:
This idea that near-sightedness is going to become an epidemic, does the aging population of the world have anything to do with that, or is that completely separate, that your eyes are just getting older here in Japan and everywhere else as you look across the world?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah. So I don’t know that we can attribute it to the Baby Boomer generation or the Millennials as they progress into the age of 50 plus. I actually think it’s probably going to be the Gen Z-ers, the Zoomers as they call them, that are going to be the bulk of this myopic category, this 50% of the world. And so that’s what has alarmed eye care professionals and researchers worldwide into trying to pin down the link between near work and a growing eye, which leads to the near-sightedness that we see in our clinics.

Chuck Gaidica:
Yeah. So you’ve talked about a couple other things, but I guess we could touch on those again and anything else that maybe falls in this category., Are you seeing, you talked about dry eyes, maybe tearing eyes. Are there other chronic conditions that are manifesting anything that you’re seeing, even physically that when you look into the eye with your gizmos and gadgets, that you’re seeing film on the eye, not a tumor, but you know what I mean? Something that physically is manifesting itself, or am I off base there?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
No, I mean, I think one way to think about this is when we do comprehensive eye exams, to your point, we’re looking for a whole host of chronic eye diseases, chief among them cataracts, macular degeneration, glaucoma, diabetic retinopathy. And so to stay with our discussion, there’s really no evidence that blue light specifically is contributing to those chronic conditions. But as a population, if we want to be concerned about a portion of that electromagnetic spectrum that connects to these chronic eye conditions, we should really focus our attention on UV light. And so chronic UV exposure is associated relatively strongly with cataracts and age-related macular degeneration, as well as various types of eye malignancies, growths, skin cancers around the ocular surface. So those are things that we see on a daily basis. And one of the things we educate our patients on is proper UV protection. Again, the biggest contributor of blue light and UV light is the sun. So we should all be paying attention to how much we’re in sunglasses and protecting our eyes from those sources of light.

Chuck Gaidica:
And that’s not necessarily a seasonal discussion, right? I mean, you can have tremendous sunlight bounce off the snow while you’re going out cross-country skiing. And you don’t really think, “Well, I really need to wear sunglasses today,” but you do.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah, yeah. Here in Michigan, we’re all too accustomed to sunlight and snow and the havoc it can wreak on your eyes as you’re driving into work, or you’re right, cross-country skiing or snowshoeing, whatever the case is. So yeah, we’re getting UV light exposure even on those cloudy days. And even if you’re not sensitive to light, lots of people aren’t, they can go out on a really bright day and do fine, if you’re wanting to work on your eye health, one of the things you can do is making sure you have a pair of nice sunglasses on, a large brim hat, something that covers the eyes itself and also the skin surrounding the eye.

Chuck Gaidica:
And when you talk about these other things that can manifest, I never would have thought that UV sunlight would directly be producing things like cataracts or skin cancer. You say skin cancer, you don’t think of that popping up on an eye, but it can happen.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah, it can, both on the white part of the eye, something we call the conjunctiva, and especially on the eyelids themselves, we have things like squamous cell carcinomas. And unfortunately we see those more as patients move into their 60s and 70s, just because of the cumulative exposure of UV light. But one important piece to add here is we really should be putting sunglasses or glasses with UV protection on our young kids. They’re the ones who don’t have the ability to filter out those UV rays, as much as you do once you reach your 20s and 30s. So it’s really important to get sunglasses or glasses with UV filters and protection on our kids.

Chuck Gaidica:
So I remember about 20 years ago, I went to the eye doctor, and I was just beginning to have trouble reading close up. I never have trouble, and I’m a private pilot, so I could see forever in the distance, but I was having trouble reading. And it seemed like it came on as fast as, no joke, I was rolling around with one of our kids on my back on a Sunday. And I was reading the little stock section, you know where they used to put the little stock symbols in tiny little print?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Sure.

Chuck Gaidica:
And I could read it like 20 times a day, no problem. And it literally seemed as fast as I rolled over to play with a kid, and I rolled back and I couldn’t read anymore. That’s how it seemed to me anyway. So I go to the eye doctor and he says to me, and I’m in my early 40s at the time, said, “Yeah, you’re kind of on a ski hill. You’re at the top right now, and as you get older, you’re going down fast and you can’t really stop it.”

Chuck Gaidica:
And we both laughed, I knew him, and he was my doctor for a long time. So it really didn’t throw me for a loop. There was no insult assuredly, but if I could write a letter to younger me, what would I be telling younger me now that I should have been doing? Is it as simple as look away if you’re reading, take breaks? Are there any other things that I should be thinking about then, or anybody that’s the Gen Z or the Boom X or somebody younger who could be thinking about what to do to keep their eye health in shape?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah. It’s such a great question. I think to your point, that conversation in an exam room, it is always a touchy one. You learn pretty early not to throw out the word old in an eye exam. So you come up with clever phrases like your doctor did. And one of the ways we talk about it sometimes is the changes you’re having are age appropriate. It’s the slowing down of the focusing system that happens in your early 40s and certainly by your mid-40s. And it’s sort of like death and taxes. You just can’t avoid it.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
There are lots of recommendations for our patients as they move towards that age bracket, but we don’t have anything yet to prevent the changes you described Chuck. I would say to young patients following the 20-20-20 rule is a great way to keep your eyes comfortable throughout your day, especially when you’re on screens. We should try to encourage younger patients to get outside and not spend hours buried in a screen, or again, even in a book, because there is a growing link between near-sighted development and near work. And then I think a big piece is the things that are going to tie into your overall systemic health. So sunglasses to protect your eyes from UV light, but exercise, sleep, doing the things that are going to protect your heart and brain are also going to protect your eyes, leafy green vegetables, bell peppers, those things that have lots of antioxidants are going to hopefully prevent the start and progression of conditions like cataracts and macular degeneration. So those things are huge.

Chuck Gaidica:
And if I come visit you at Henry Ford OptimEyes, the coating that you can put on my glasses, I’m forced to maybe be someone who’s got to be on my computer all day long, I’m now doing my Excel spreadsheets. I’m an accountant, right? I’m doing it from home. Does that coating help? Does that give me an added layer of protection?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah, I think you hit on an important piece, which is, I think the place to start is a comprehensive eye exam. If you have concerns, if you have these symptoms of digital eyestrain, get an eye exam from an eyecare provider to rule out any underlying, we call it refractive error or prescription. For many patients, it is just they’re in their early 40s and they don’t really know what’s happening. They’re having trouble focusing, their vision’s going blurry, and fluctuating between clear and blurry. And we can offer a lot of suggestions just through the comprehensive eye exam, but those filters absolutely do work. They reduce blue light from reaching your eyes. Now as we’ve established, there’s no clear link between blue light in digital eyestrain and its symptoms, including dryness, burning, tearing, or headaches, but plenty of patients do report an improvement in these symptoms. And then it’s just hard to disentangle any placebo effect at play.

Chuck Gaidica:
What about the, and I’m trying to, these aren’t hacks really, but I’m just thinking of from your standpoint and me as a consumer, if I walk in there… Also, I could pick up a pair of glasses that will turn into sunglasses. So you kind of skip that step of having to carry another pair of glasses in the car. Oh, I left the house on my bicycle. I forgot them. So now, ah forget it. I just won’t go back. I’ll just wear my regular glasses or no glasses at all. So does that help you? Do those kinds of things give you a little leg up on the process if you’ve got automatic tinting, regular reading glasses or you know, glasses.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
So it’s very common now to have transition lenses placed in your frame. And most patients really do love the seamless transition from clear to dark that you get. It just makes life a little easier than having a separate pair of sunglasses. Plenty of patients still love that pair of sunglasses, the polarized pair that they’re going to wear out on the lake to go fishing or a day with the family on the boat, see really clear into the water. But yeah, there are plenty of products that we offer that help reduce eye strain, help make sure you’re seeing clearly and comfortably throughout your entire day, when you go from work to home life, social life and on the weekends.

Chuck Gaidica:
From your expert position, is there a tremendous difference between cheapy sunglasses and expensive sunglasses? If I’m going to get a… I know people in my family who would say, “I’m just buying $5 pairs of sunglasses because I lose them all the time.” Plops they’re in the water, got to go, and and if I drop my Maui Jim’s or whatever, they’re gone. There’s 150 bucks. Is there a major difference that you should be thinking about when taking care of your eyes or on vacation even, that you should lean towards something better?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
So that’s a really great question. I don’t think it’s anything we should overly worry about.

Chuck Gaidica:
Okay, good.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Any pair of sunglasses is going to do its job better than no sunglasses. So if you’re on vacation in Florida, and you don’t have opportunity to go to your local optometrist and get a prescription pair, or you lost your prescription pair, certainly I’d rather you pick up a cheap pair of UVA, UVB blocking sunglasses. That’ll do the job and will protect your eyes from UV light. But your question was, is there a difference, and I can attest to there being a pretty big difference in terms of the optics, how clear lenses can be when you have a prescription pair of sunglasses that have polarization and UVA, UVB blocking versus sort of your gas station pair. There can be a pretty big difference in terms of clarity of vision, but in regards to health effects, I think you’re doing okay to get a pair from Kohl’s or JC Penney or Meijer or wherever the case is and you’ll be fine.

Chuck Gaidica:
So you’re sort of fighting like a salmon upstream here against what’s happening in the world, right? I mean, you’re living it, I’m living it. And when we talk about going back five years or even 20 years in my one story, we’re talking about phrases we didn’t know about just a few years ago, 5G, binging, and oftentimes now and streaming. These are things that are happening on smaller devices, even if you get the bigger cell phone, that it’s got to be hard for you to get out the 20-20-20 rule. Where do you see the opportunity, outside of podcasts like this, for you to get the message out that it’s a critical time for people to really pay attention to their eye health?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
That’s a great point. We luckily have a lot of people advocating for eye health at the state and national level. So we do have campaigns for vision health, but other than that, it just has to happen in the exam room. I think one of the things I wish we could get patients to do is… I love my dentist. It’s actually my wife’s dentist going back years, she’s sort of his star patient, but one thing that our friends in dentistry have done a nice job of is getting people to understand the link between their dental health and their systemic health. And that is the same with optometry and your eye exam.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
When you come to get an eye exam, we’re going to dilate your pupils, look into the back of the eye, and it’s the only place where we can see active live blood vessels with blood coursing through them without cutting into your skin or doing some fancy scan. So we can tell, when we look into the retina, if you have early signs of high blood pressure, early signs of high cholesterol, early signs of diabetes, in addition to those other eye conditions, cataracts, glaucoma, macular degeneration. So I think a lot of the education has to start there, and it’s getting patients into our exam room that we can really turn the tide on some of these concerns.

Chuck Gaidica:
You know, that’s a great point to connect it to your overall systemic health. And I never gave it a ton of thought that you are able to see. You’re seeing through the walls like Superman. I mean, you really are able to see things that no other doc can see often.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah, and we feel an immense amount of responsibility when patients come to our clinics to be the first person sometime to tell them, “Hey, look we’re seeing signs of diabetes in your eye. I know no one’s told you that before, but we need you to go follow up with your primary care doctor and get some blood work done.” So, yeah, it’s pretty cool.

Chuck Gaidica:
And when you say that, what are you seeing? You’re saying you can see diabetes? That blows my mind. I know we’re a little off topic, but it just really blows my mind that you could see it.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
No, yeah. It’s a great question. With diabetes, what happens is the blood vessels throughout the body become weak by the elevated blood sugar coursing through them. And so the inner linings of those blood vessels can start to leak. And the places we really worry about are in the feet, in the kidneys, in the brain, and in the eyes, because those areas have the smallest blood vessels. And out of those four places I just listed, as we talked about, the eyes are the only one you can look through the pupil, look into the back and get an idea if there’s bleeding or breaks in the walls of those vessels, what we call micro aneurysms or retinal hemorrhages, which can cue us into the progression of diabetes in that patient.

Chuck Gaidica:
You know, it’s just fantastic to hear that you’re able to see so much, and I don’t mean that as a pun, but that you are. You are able to really help us understand this. I don’t know if you have any other takeaways for us, but if you could re-explain the 20-20 rule again, so I can make a mental note and anything else you want to give us as advice here as we go forward into our days. The sun will come back in Michigan. It’s stayed out for a long time. We’re headed in that right direction.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah, yeah. We’re going to get there. Yeah, I think the 20-20 rule is again, what it means is every 20 minutes, we should be looking 20 feet away for about 20 seconds. So it’s 20-20-20, 20 feet away for 20 seconds. And what that does is it gives us the opportunity to reset our focusing system, re-lubricate the front of our eyes through a couple of blinks, and can really help at the end of a long day, reduce the symptoms of digital eyestrain. And one other kind of takeaway point from this conversation is again, blue light’s really not the culprit for digital eyestrain. It ends up being how we’re using our devices more than anything. And if we’re going to pin a culprit down, we should probably be pointing to the sun thinking about blocking the UV rays and the blue light that comes from the biggest emitter if we ever get to see it again in Michigan.

Chuck Gaidica:
Well those are great. And I don’t want to make this go on forever because I know you’re a busy guy, but one thing did pop in my mind, I completely skipped over, which was sleep and this notion of going to bed reading your book on an iPad or some other device. Is there a direct correlation, maybe not just with blue light, but again, with reading itself on a device that is a problem for keeping you awake or making your eyes twitch or something as you’re trying to fall asleep after reading on a device at night?

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Sure. So this is an area where I think the science is quite clear. So we know that light of all wavelengths suppresses melatonin, which is secreted from the pineal gland in our brains. And it helps with our circadian rhythm. So blue light from screens suppresses melatonin more than any other wavelength and drawing that out further, there are some connections between circadian dysregulation and other systemic health issues. So yeah, we should be trying to cut down on the amount of screen time we have before we go to bed. We should start turning off, shutting off devices, probably within two or three hours, if possible, before you really settle in. And you see this on your phones and on your devices, the night mode or the dark mode. That’s what these large companies have created to get rid of the blue light emitted from our screens.

Chuck Gaidica:
Well, it sure is a pleasure connecting with you and oh man, what a great conversation. The 20-20-20 rule, every 20 minutes, you’re on a device, turn your head, look 20 feet away for 20 seconds. And it’s a great way to think about it. And I so appreciate your time, Dr. Kimbro. I think we’ve learned a lot today.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
Yeah, I’m so happy to have done it. It’s been great.

Chuck Gaidica:
Well take good care of yourself.

Dr. Paul Kimbro:
All right, appreciate it, Chuck.

Chuck Gaidica:
All right, listen. We want to thank you for listening to A Healthier Michigan podcast. Hope you enjoyed this episode. It’s brought to you by Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan. If you like our show, and you want to know more, check us out online. Go to ahealthiermichigan.org/podcast, and you can leave a review or rating on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can get great episodes. So we’re at episode 76 today, as you heard when we started. That means we’ve got 75 other episodes with a myriad of topics that you can listen to, take on a walk, for good health. I don’t know if you can get it in 20 seconds, but you can certainly listen wherever you go on your smartphone or tablet. Be sure to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. I’m Chuck Gaidica. Be well.